More Changes Needed to Drive Score

  • 14
  • Idea
  • Updated 3 years ago
  • Under Consideration
Archived and Closed

This conversation is no longer open for comments or replies and is no longer visible to community members.

Hello,

I think you guys need to revise some of the ways that you calculate "scores" for drivers. I have read some others feedback about specific times when one MUST brake hard, or accelerate quickly in order to be a safe driver at particular intersections, stretches of highway, etc.

I wanted to echo this sentiment only with the 70 mph speed limit issue. Now, I realize that the goal of this is to be a more economic driver by staying to some of the lower speeds that might yield higher mileage efficiency. However, I think the efficiency part doesnt really tell the whole story.

For example, I take Florida's turnpike to work every single day. The speed limit on that stretch of highway is 70mph. I am a speed limit driver which means that I set the cruise control to 70mph and let it go. In my opinion, and in most others too, it would be unsafe to drive below the speed limit during rush hour. And, each day there's usually a time or two where I must temporarily exceed the speed limit by a few MPH in order to perform a specific maneuver in order to pass someone safely or get out of someone's blind spot.

So, in my daily commute I don't really have a choice but to drive right at and occasionally slightly above 70mph. I don't particularly feel that it's fair that my drive score be penalized constantly because of set speed limit of the roads I drive on -- something effectively beyond my control. At worst, you may be incentivising someone to drive well below the general flow of traffic in order to get higher scores. You'd be promoting something which is undoubtedly unsafe.

In short, I think you guys need to somewhat rethink your scoring system to better align with real world driving.

A decent suggestion, at least in the case of hard braking and hard acceleration, might be to somehow allow for this to happen occasionally without affecting your score. Perhaps it allows a certain amount of these instances per hour/miles in the car, or it counts each time you accelerate and decelerate and then from that ratio allow a threshold where these actions are forgiven to a point. But once the ratio gets too high it starts to count against your score.

After all the point, as I understand it, is to correct inefficient driving. It shouldn't be to "punish" drivers that usually do drive efficiently but must make occasional "inefficient" moves for safety's sake.

As for the speed limit thing -- there are databases out there that know the speed limits for each road. Perhaps you can put logic into your calculations that enforce the 70mph rules unless the speed limit of the road is greater than 65mph.

Just a few suggestions.
Photo of Andrew Garfield

Andrew Garfield

  • 400 Points 250 badge 2x thumb

Posted 5 years ago

  • 14
Photo of Amy

Amy

  • 68,970 Points 50k badge 2x thumb
Thanks for the additional feedback on drive score & thresholds, Andrew!
Photo of Blake Helms

Blake Helms

  • 190 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
Totally agree with this. I get dinged every day because I occasionally have to exceed 70 to get out of a trucks blind spot or to get past an erratic driver. Also when leaving work I hVe to cross a major highway and have to accelerate quickly in order to get a cross without getting hit. There should be an allowance for exceeding the threshold. It shouldn't allow much but ultimately the score and alerts should reflect systematic driving problems.
Photo of Ani

Ani, Customer Care Lead

  • 9,774 Points 5k badge 2x thumb
Keep the feedback coming! We're definitely listening. :)
Photo of IgKnight

IgKnight

  • 320 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
I am a speed limit driver, but have tried doing the 65 mph on the highway instead of the 70 limit. I have seen a difference in my MPG, unless its just the engine breaking in finally (less than 3,000 miles).

The issue is that here in Michigan, the cops don't stop you unless you are doing over 80, and most people do 75+

While yes, I'm seeing perhaps a 3 mpg difference between 65 and 70, its not worth risking my life or others doing 5 under the limit, but 15 - 20 under everyone else, and trust me, Michigan drivers are a-holes and will tailgate you so you can't even see the hood of their car in the slow lane with two other wide open passing lanes.

With the breaking thing, when I can, I like to coast to the stop. I drop a good 10 - 15 mph before I break (unless there are people behind me). There are some roads where I drive where the speed limit is 55, and the light will go from Green, to Yellow, to Red in 5 seconds, no crosswalk warning. There is no time to slow down, you just have to hit your breaks (the tire marks on the rode prove it). While I know that your score isn't anything to get worked up about, I also think "well s***, there goes my score" when I hit the breaks. Same thing when I have to hit the breaks for a deer or other animal in the road (I live in the country, happens often).

Perhaps things like the hard breaking and acceleration can be explained away for a lesser penalty. After the trip is calculated, you can go back and pick an option (Traffic, Obstruction in Road, Unexpected Light Change, etc...). Depending on what you pick, will depend on how badly your score gets dinged. If you continue to do the same thing over, and over, then you can get dinged more.

Same thing could be done for the over mileage. With so many people upset about that, perhaps give them an option, 70 or 75 for the top speed. When they pick 75, you can give them a warning that 65 is the better speed to go for MPG. When they go over their set limit, they can do the same thing with hard stops, pick a reason. While driving 65 there are the occasions I would get dinged for doing over 70 for less than a minute. Those are normally so I can safely pass others without ticking off the people behind me to badly. While again I know the score isn't life or death, I still don't like getting dinged, especially for doing something safer instead of going for the better MPG.

Just my 2 cents.
Photo of Tom

Tom, Former Employee

  • 41,706 Points 20k badge 2x thumb
Thanks for your really in-depth feedback regarding changes to the Drive Score, IgKnight. I will be sure to pass this along.
Photo of RobinR

RobinR

  • 224 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
I have a different take on the speeding thing which is that it doesn't reflect real world mpg. My car tells me the mpg as I drive. Starting out from red lights it reads 6, 8, 11, etc until I get up to cruising speed. In normal city traffic that makes my average mpg really low but my Automatic score high. Kind of backwards.

Meanwhile, on the freeway once I reach a speed consistent with the flow of traffic I ease up on the accelerator & my mpg is over 30, I've seen it hit 80.

It seems to me that while consistent speeding, hard braking, & fast acceleration are mpg robbers, driving freeway speeds on freeways & occasional hard brakes & accelerations are normal & the entire scoring algorithm may need to be overhauled.
Photo of Amy

Amy

  • 68,970 Points 50k badge 2x thumb
The entire scoring algorithm *is* getting overhauled! ;)
Photo of Edwin Henneken

Edwin Henneken

  • 146 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled
Fast curve taking.


Taking curves too fast results in unnecessary tear of tires. Bad tires result in increased fuel consumption. Since you track GPS position and speed, you could (if you have really smart developers) come up with a measure for "taking a curve too fast". You probably can relate it to the centrifugal force. Add this and your device would climb even further on the ladder of awesome!
Photo of Tom

Tom, Former Employee

  • 41,706 Points 20k badge 2x thumb
Thanks for the idea Edwin. I merged your idea into a related discussion on changes to the drive score. We’re planning to overhaul the entire scoring algorithm, and this is something we could consider when that time comes. We initially focused on the three biggest factors impacting fuel consumption/efficiency in order to simplify the experience, but that will be changing due in part to user feedback. Thanks again!
Photo of Ian Maddox

Ian Maddox

  • 182 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
I'd actually be really interested to see tire wear from fast curves tested against the additional fuel usage from slowing down and speeding back up.  Maybe wider and stickier tires reduce fuel economy in a straight line but make up for it in the turns.  :)
Photo of Edwin Henneken

Edwin Henneken

  • 146 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
Tires affect vehicle fuel economy mainly through rolling resistance. More wear, less rolling resistance. Bad driving habits, like taking curves too fast, result in increased tire wear. Reference: http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11620
(Edited)
Photo of Robert Reuscher

Robert Reuscher

  • 256 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
I look forward to your overhaul. It seems the drive score is too simplistic. For example, this week (according your system which runs from Monday through Sunday), Monday through Friday I got scores of 90-97 by watching the speed over 70 (even though I was driving on the toll roads around here which are 70). The hard brakes are difficult to control, almost always caused by traffic. And the lead foot. Each trip to work has been around 25 MPG during the week, mimimal street traffic, less than 2 miles of the 12 mile trip the rest is all highway. 
Yesterday took a longer trip (120 miles one way) out of town. Probably 10 miles of which were in town traffic. The rest of trip was highways with speed limits of 60 to 75, maybe 10-15 miles where the speed limits were 60 or 65 most of the trip was 70, the rest 75. The reported MPG on the way out was 30, and on the way back 31. My score for the day? 48. bringing the entire week down to 47. So the day I got the most MPG decimated the score? I have found before I started using the device as long as I keep the RPM's under 2K I get the best gas mileage. In my car until I get to 80 or above the car will cruise at less than 2K RPM's, unless going up an elevation. At 80 it's just a little above and 85 about 2500. That drops my MPG to about 28-29. (PS there's a stretch of SH130 in TX that the legal speed limit is 85).

Next Sunday I have another long trip 104+ each way, of which if I remember right is mostly 65. I'll try to remember to keep it under 70 for the trip and see if that makes a difference in the MPG. My guess is it won't (as that's what I remember getting on the previous trips there make that trip 2-3 times a year), but will make a huge difference in the score since there won't be >1 hour of over 70 like yesterday. So the score does not seem to reflect reality. 
Photo of Tom

Tom, Former Employee

  • 41,706 Points 20k badge 2x thumb
Thanks for chiming in Robert! I will be sure to pass this feedback along to the team. 
Photo of Robert Reuscher

Robert Reuscher

  • 256 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
Did my unscientific test today.

Drive to the camp this morning 116.1 miles. 1 hard brake, <1 min over 70 (had cruise control set at 68 for the trip, even though there was a short stretch of 70/75). The slip up was after my stop in town and let it get up above 70 before I remembered and set the cruise control again. No Hard Accels. Score after that trip was 97 (only trip that for day at that time). MPG 31 (30 EPA).

Trip back,  drove my normal way (cruise control 3-4 miles above posted speed limit). 1 Hard Brake (again traffic/lights), 10 minutes over 70, No Hard Accels (getting better at that !). 128.3 miles (had a couple of extra stops that fit within the 15 short time frame). MPG 32 (30 EPA). Score for the day now 63. Don't see any way to get a Score for an trip, and not sure how the trips are combine to get the daily score. 

Think I read in some other thread that the Score is not related to MPG, but to how "efficiently" your driving. That may be true, but is the point of efficiently driving to improve your MPG? Everything you subtract from the score is supposed to have an impact on the MPG. 

It seems to me that you should base at least some part of the Score on the comparison to the post EPA MPG ratings for the car. You know what kind of car I have and the model, so it shouldn't be too hard to keep a database of EPA ratings for that particular model and use that somehow in the Score. The challenge there would to be figure out what is highway vs in town (speeds might be a decent indicator for that). I'm not sure how they classify City vs Highway. 
Photo of Tom

Tom, Former Employee

  • 41,706 Points 20k badge 2x thumb
Thanks for conducting this test and your subsequent analysis, Robert! There are some great insights here that I will share with the team. You may have already reviewed this FAQ, but here's more info on how drive scores are currently calculated. Automatic also uses mapping data to determine what roads are city versus highway.
Photo of Ian Maddox

Ian Maddox

  • 182 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
Sign me up as another party very interested in a realistic driving score.  Hard acceleration is frequently unavoidable - I get yellow and purple dots at the same three or four spots on my daily commute, every day. When combined with a 70-mph interstate speed limit (traffic flows at 80+), driving prudently guarantees a bad score.

Seems to me that it might help if Automatic was capable of learning.  Tweak your GPS grabber to get the position of each potential infraction.  Check to see if the user *always* accelerates or brakes hard at that position, discount those infractions.  Check against OpenStreetMap or something to determine whether you're going 70+ because of the posted speed limit or because of hooliganism; discount the infraction if the user is driving rationally.  Notice I said "discount", not "eliminate" - the idea isn't to ignore the impact of fast driving on fuel economy, the idea is to avoid persecuting users that have no control over flow of traffic.  

If Automatic tracks GPS locations of infractions, they should also be able to start building a map product that shows where "bad things" tend to occur  - this sounds like a product that city planners and traffic engineers might be interested in using... and you can start doing linkbait! "Top 10 craziest intersections in the US", "See this weird trick used in England to improve fuel economy and eliminate wrecks", "Worst 10 roads for speeding".  
Photo of Tom

Tom, Former Employee

  • 41,706 Points 20k badge 2x thumb
Ian, you bring up some really interesting ideas. Thanks for sharing, and I'll pass the message along.
Photo of lchamp

lchamp

  • 866 Points 500 badge 2x thumb
I 'suffered' a couple of algorithm problems today...

Background: I am a bit of a hyper-miler and really do think ahead for stops and very seldom accelerate quickly.

Today, I was stopped at a signal on a downhill grade.  When the signal turned green, I released the brake and barely cracked the throttle...BEEEEP!  I got a hard accel.  My only other hard accel was when I was testing the system on the first day I got the link.

Another problem occurred today when I was decelerating on an uphill grade without using brakes.  When I let off the gas on a rather steep hill to turn into a shopping center...BEEEEP!  Hard braking and I didn't even use the brakes.

YES, the algorithm needs work.  I hate to be penalized for good driving practices.

The web dashboard shows testing in the Bay Area.  I would have thought the "hill problem" would have been addressed by now.
Photo of Tom

Tom, Former Employee

  • 41,706 Points 20k badge 2x thumb
Sorry about the incorrect hard alerts, Ichamp. If you know the trip(s) in which you received the incorrect alerts, you can report them through the app by using the "Report a problem" button in the Settings menu or by emailing tech support directly at help@automatic.com
Photo of Abhishek

Abhishek

  • 270 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
I echo lchamp's sentiments. I have, can and continue to consistently hit 70+ mph (albeit not all the time, takes some smart driving), but I can average 36-39 mpg in my Honda Accord 6MT. I think the algorithm does not take into account the rpm count of the engine as it calculates the score. I can keep going at 65 mph, hit a downgrade and let go of the accelerator, but yet push my mileage up past optimum while still getting the overspeed penalties. For example, I drove 80 miles one way to Cape Cod a few weekends ago, had 36 >70 warnings and still averaged 37 mpg on that drive. Something just does not click. The scoring needs to take into account other factors rather than just penalize driving above 70 mph.
Photo of Tom

Tom, Former Employee

  • 41,706 Points 20k badge 2x thumb
You bring up some great observations regarding the drive score algorithm Abhishek, thanks for chiming in. As you have experienced, scores are still impacted by time spent over 70 MPH. This is because the drive score currently measures behaviors that impact fuel efficiency, and driving at speeds higher than 70 MPH have a big impact on fuel consumption. Be sure to visit this FAQ for more details on how Automatic helps to improve fuel efficiency.
(Edited)
Photo of David Kain

David Kain

  • 106 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Automatic Score vs. Gas Mileage: opposite correlation.

anyone else notice that the lower your week's driver score, the higher your gas mileage is? love the app but maybe that part needs some recalibration
Photo of Tom

Tom, Former Employee

  • 41,706 Points 20k badge 2x thumb
Thanks for your feedback, David. I merged your post into a related discussion on implementing changes to drive scores. Right now, the thresholds for hard brakes/accelerations and speeding are standard across all vehicles, but we are planning to make some changes to the algorithm in the future, thanks in part to the feedback we’ve received.

For more information on how we currently calculate drive scores, be sure to check out this FAQ. 
Photo of lchamp

lchamp

  • 866 Points 500 badge 2x thumb
I got a hard brake today when I swear I was slowing smoothly to a signal.  Perhaps the algorithm should allow one "mulligan" per trip or day.  

I have received several hard acceleration dings at or below 15mph.  Perhaps hard accel should not be calculated under 15 or 20 mph.  On some downhill grades, you can hit 10 or 15mph without even cracking the throttle.  Very discouraging...on one occasion, I said "heck with it" and floored the throttle.  As long as I was being dinged for hard accel, I may as well EARN it.  

It seems like all my hard accel or braking dings occur below 15-20 mph. As a hyper-miler, it is quite annoying and defeats the purpose of the app IMO.  
Photo of Tom

Tom, Former Employee

  • 41,706 Points 20k badge 2x thumb
Hi there, Ichamp. I had tech support review the hard brake in question, and it appears to be correct. In order to "achieve" a hard brake/acceleration, Automatic needs to calculate about 0.3 Gs from the velocity data (which is around 8 to 10 MPH in one second), and according to the logs, it looks like this threshold was met. Whenever you experience a hard alert that you feel is incorrect, don't hesitate to report them through the app by using the "Report a problem" button found in the Settings menu. 
Photo of lchamp

lchamp

  • 866 Points 500 badge 2x thumb
OK...next time I'll run the red light if that's what your algorithm requires.  no...not a good idea, I was going to buy one for my wife, but I don't want to give her that idea.
Photo of Tom

Tom, Former Employee

  • 41,706 Points 20k badge 2x thumb
We definitely don't recommend running red lights! Having said that, I understand your frustration with the algorithm when it comes to traffic lights. You may want to check out related topic on hard brakes at yellow lights.  Having said that, mulligans/freebies are also under consideration. Here's a link to the related discussion.
Photo of Abhishek

Abhishek

  • 270 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
Also, there's the problem for people driving in the snow. If your car is skidding in the snow, and you are trying to get it to climb an incline on a snowed road, everything becomes a hard acceleration. Seriously?? Drives scores of 45 the whole of winter? Something is terribly messed up.
Photo of Tom

Tom, Former Employee

  • 41,706 Points 20k badge 2x thumb
Hi Abhishek. This is a known issue that we're working to address. Here's a link to the related discussion on hard alerts due to icy/snowy road conditions. Once some progress is made, we'll be sure to update that topic with the relevant info. Stay safe out there in the mean time!
Photo of Justin Phillips

Justin Phillips

  • 220 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
Is the idea behind the driver score to measure people's driving habits or their actual driving efficiency?

I can see the rationale behind measuring just driver habits as it takes the differences between cars out of the picture for the most part, the downside is that it doesn't "reward" drivers for actually driving more efficiently, it rewards them for driving in a way that _may_ or _probably_ results in higher efficiency.

Getting dinged for driving at/over 70mph is a sore point for me (and others it would seem). 70 is arbitrary, surely what really matters is how far past the best MPG my car is capable of I am driving? A sliding scale of "penalty" based on the best possible MPG for my car seems to make much more sense and would provide a much more compelling picture of why I should drive differently IMHO.

In addition, I would like to know how I stack up to other drivers with the same car, how often I beat the EPA measurement (should be bonus points for that right?), how I stack up to other people doing a similar trip at the same time (traffic conditions can make a huge difference to your MPG) among other things.

One last piece of input into the tweaks around Driver Score, I've occasionally done a little "hypermiling" style driving, (shifting to neutral going downhill for example) and I've noticed this actually damages my MPG as reported by my car (hard to experiment with Automatic on that) as it registers 0 MPG when in neutral, even though I'm still moving, hopefully Automatic takes does a better job of this and similar scenarios.

I know the product is new and evolving (hopefully quickly) so please take this as constructive feedback rather than the whining it sounds a little bit like when I read it back :D

Thanks

Justin
Photo of Tom

Tom, Former Employee

  • 41,706 Points 20k badge 2x thumb
We definitely appreciate constructive feedback :) Thanks for chiming in, Justin.
Photo of lchamp

lchamp

  • 866 Points 500 badge 2x thumb
Excellent suggestions.  Most of the comparison data is already in their database, because they note it in our dashboard details.  The evolution seems to be rather slow.  I'm going to wait for a little more program maturity before buying any more units for family members.  I'm afraid they missed an opportunity, given the current season, for current users to buy more units for family members.

Because my wife and I are elderly, I would like to see some way of real time tracking as well as just showing where the car is parked at the current time...evolution.  
Photo of Eric Ose

Eric Ose

  • 90 Points 75 badge 2x thumb
Can anything be done regarding hard acceleration in conjunction with icy conditions?  I live in Minnesota and drive a pickup (meaning light back-end, rear wheel drive). I often get the audio warning regarding hard acceleration when it is really just slipping on the ice.  
Photo of Tom

Tom, Former Employee

  • 41,706 Points 20k badge 2x thumb
Hi Eric. We're still working to address the issue with receiving hard alerts on icy/snowy road conditions. Here's a link to the related discussion.
Photo of Eric Ose

Eric Ose

  • 90 Points 75 badge 2x thumb
Thanks, Tom.  Glad to know you're looking for a solution.
Photo of Jody Albritton

Jody Albritton

  • 152 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
Vast stretches of the roads I drive everyday here in Texas have a posted speed limit of 75 mile per hour. It is dangerous to drive below the posted speed limit. I would have an otherwise perfect driving score if it were not for losing points because I drive the speed limit. 
Photo of Per Thomsen

Per Thomsen

  • 114 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
Are there any published plans about how (and when) the scoring algorithm will be changed?

I have just installed my Automatic, and I can't seem to avoid getting a lousy score when I do any significant amount of freeway driving. 

A lot of people have noted the huge ding in score you get for going over 70mph and any hard-braking events. On my most recent trips I got a score of 49 and 54, respectively, ostensibly putting me in the bottom 13% and 19% of drivers. 

However, my MPG for the trips were 51 and 52, respectively, (hybrid car, EPA mpg is 41/44). And no, I'm not a huge hyper-miler or anything like that (I DO use the cruise-control to keep a lid on my lead-foot)...

I guess I'm just echoing what a lot of other folks here are saying: the scoring algorithm has a lot of limitations, and there is a seeming mismatch between the score, and how people feel like they are driving, plus the emprical measure of MPG.
(Edited)
Photo of Jody Albritton

Jody Albritton

  • 152 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
I think the answer to this is simple. Let the driver decide if they want to be scored on safety or fuel economy and provide two scores. 
Photo of Abhishek

Abhishek

  • 270 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
I don't even know where this is going. Automatic has come out with a new line of adapters and yet the scoring algorithm for the old one sucks. Right now, the only use I get out of my Automatic is to track where all I have been and it makes pretty viewing on the dashboard. End of story. I average more than the EPA on my 2013 Honda Accord (especially on highways) and am stuck with scores of 50-80. Which basically tells me this is all baloney. If my Navdy comes along soon enough, I think my Automatic is going to be retired since I do not intend to purchase a OBD splitter for something that is completely redundant anyway. Dissatisfied for now, until they fix this to be more useful.
Photo of Per Thomsen

Per Thomsen

  • 114 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
From what I've been able to read about how the scoring is done, the high-speed / hard-braking scoring / hard-accel dings are meant to be fuel-economy measures. However, if I have 2 hard-braking events and 15 minutes of going over 70mph during a 2.5hr drive on busy metropolitan freeways, that clearly doesn't affect my fuel-economy very much.

To me, the problem is that those measures, while they clearly matter (if you drove like a lunatic with constant hard-braking and hard-accel, and/or constantly drove 90mph, you'd get very bad fuel-economy), my gut tells me that they don't matter as much as they impact the score.

I understand the desire to keep the app simple, and to give easy, straight-forward advice on how to improve your MPG, so this is not an easy problem for Automatic to solve. The reality is just much more complicated.
(Edited)
Photo of Abhishek

Abhishek

  • 270 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
Yes. The reality is pretty complicated. But the point is that Automatic already taps into the engine to monitor performance. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out if my speed is over 75 mph and my engine's rpm meter is very low to calculate that I'm going fast without accelerating. And this should not be affecting my drive score because I'm intelligently using the road to maximize my mileage. Which is showing in my mileage. A cross country road trip over four days, my drive score was 50 something and I averaged 40 mpg on my non hybrid Honda Accord. What's the point of using automatic then?? Like I said, right now, the trips make for prett viewing on my Automatic dashboard. That's it.
Photo of Per Thomsen

Per Thomsen

  • 114 Points 100 badge 2x thumb
Totally agree @abhishek. The 3 measures are pretty blunt instruments, and they definitely need some more smarts added to them, before they become a helpful instrument in improving your fuel-economy.

Initially, I was trying to find out what the planned changes are, and when they'll be coming. This thread was started 2 years ago, and as far as I can tell there have not been any updates to the scoring algorithm since then.

I'm a new user, so I don't know what the pace of updates to the app/firmware is. How often has the app been updated, and has the scoring algorithm ever been changed?
Photo of Abhishek

Abhishek

  • 270 Points 250 badge 2x thumb
The app has been updated quite a few times,but most of them have been firmware updates only. I used to check the updates with a certain degree of excitement to see if they had done anything to the drive score, but gave up after sometime. And such is life from that point of time.

This conversation is no longer open for comments or replies.